Omer Maman, following their $32m Series A funding round Transcript
[00:00:00] Alex Rector: All right. So, uh, today we're joined by Omer Maman, the VP of marketing at Healthee, which is an AI powered employee benefits app. Um, it helps employees more easily manage their health benefits and employers better service their people. Omer, please, uh, if I'm messing up your name, let me know it last name too, and, uh, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Well, we're glad to have you. We're glad to have you. Um, I guess to kick us off, if you could give us a little bit of. Background on yourself and, and I guess how you ended up in this spot at Healthee. [00:00:40] Omer Maman: Yeah, sure. Gladly. Uh, so I'm Omar. I'm the VP marketing here at Healthee. Uh, I grew up in Israel. I just moved here to the States. Almost 2 years ago with my family, I'm located in New York. Um, just a little bit about my background. So, um, I started my, I, you know, I'm an engineer and quickly after I graduated my engineering school, I realized that I'm more passionate about. The integration of people, technology and business, and not just pure engineering. Uh, that's how I found myself, you know, taking responsibility on product management roles. And then from that point, product marketing and, uh, in the last. In the last 6 years, I'm taking more, I would say exact roles in marketing in marketing. I'm looking at the companies that I, uh, was honored enough to to serve. They're all belong to the metric industry. Um, I really. Feel very passionate about serving, you know, uh, the, the word and companies and impact companies, uh, do good, do good companies. And I found myself, you know, at the beginning of my career path, uh, getting into or exposed into the medical device and health, the word. And then I saw myself progressing, um, in these kinds of companies, startups, as well as big corporates. Um, And, uh, that this is where I am just a little bit about Healthee. So, uh, basically you described it beautifully what we do. I just want to give, like, more, I would say extended context. Uh, so we have developed an AI platform that basically addresses all the questions that employees and employers have about their health benefits. Um, and what is exciting about Healthee is that. It's not only benefits navigation. First of all, it's. It's based on technology and technology, and this is something that is super innovative in this industry in this space. Uh, but also we go together with employees and employee and employer from a to Z. So it's an all in 1, 1 stop shop. Uh, solution from the very beginning of open enrollment and helping you find the best benefits plan for you and your loved ones. Uh, but we also, we don't disappear after open enrollment, right? We support you all year round with benefits questions, helping you find the The right provider for you, the network provider more, I would say, cost effective solutions, uh, helping you also to, uh, to book an appointment to see reviews to check your bills all in 1 stop shop in 1 stop shop that can give you instant answers and provide you. I would, I would say the. Their level of service or the quality of service that here in the States, we deserve when it comes to health care. [00:03:33] Alex Rector: Let's see. Yeah, I mean, that's really great. And people need that, you know, uh, it's tough dealing with the insurance, uh, solutions that are out there in the States today and, um. Working through your employer to add another layer if it's confusing. So, um, I mean, are, do you guys. Your client though, right? Do you guys, are you guys typically working with, um, like self insured employers or does it matter what, what that relationship looks like? Uh, who, who's the most interested in Healthee typically do you see? [00:04:06] Omer Maman: So that's a good, that's a good question. And, uh, and what I, what I, what is exciting about Healthee that basically if you think about it, our platform, you know, qualifies for every employer, no matter if it's a small 50 employees, uh, fully insured. A company, or like a huge corporate with thousands and thousands of employee that probably there'll be a self insured. Uh, so we, uh, basically looking after all employers here in the States. That's why we're playing an infinite market, which is a huge business opportunity for us, a Healthee, and it's a huge headache for me as a marketeer, right? Because it's really hard to segment your audiences this way. Um, so we work directly, or we sell directly to to employers. SMBs as well as big, uh, uh, enterprise and corporates for sure. But we also work with, uh, PEOs and TPAs. Uh, we also sell through brokers, uh, self insured or fully insured. Uh, we have the flexibility in our platform basically to be the best fit for every employer here in the States. [00:05:11] Alex Rector: Okay, and, um, do you find that there's like a hunger for this kind of solution with the employers or are they aware of AI technology options today? Or is there many competitors in the market? [00:05:24] Omer Maman: Yeah, I can tell you that, uh, what I like about Healthee or what I like about the product, uh, that makes my life easier as a marketeer that it's the easiest product or the easiest platform to, to demonstrate, uh, we can create the wow effect instantly, you know, 2 minutes into the demo because, you know, Healthcare or, or health benefits is a, it's a headache for everyone. Why? Right. I mean, we feel most of those [00:05:52] Alex Rector: platforms are like dinosaurs. I, I feel Right. [00:05:55] Omer Maman: Right, right, right. Uh, or you, you talk about platforms, uh, uh, that, that's so nice of you. But, uh, mainly what people, uh, are, you know, are expected to handle with is, uh, to go to a call. Right. I mean, when you're right, you need to go. I mean, what are your options either to start navigating in the carriers websites that nobody, nobody remember, right? Nobody remembers what carrier am I? Is it for the dental or division or my health benefits? Where should I go? And then how should I get my answers? Or either you need to call to a call center. I think the worst thing to do is when you have a benefit question, you need to go to HR. Now, there is a very, I would say, complicated relationship, uh, when it comes to, uh, employees in HR when, you know, around health benefits or healthcare or mental health, right? If I want to check if I'm covered for anxiety, okay, or any kind of, uh, uh, mental health, uh, uh, treatment, I don't want to go to my employer. I don't want to go to my HR and say, oh, am I, am I covered for a mental health, uh, uh, treatment? Um, you know, treatment or, or if me and my, my spouse are, uh, uh, you know, we want to have baby then next year. Uh, I don't want to share this information with my employer. I want to have like a platform at the palm of my hand where I can just, you know, ask questions. Uh, our platform also embedded like a digital assistant, uh, and maybe Zoe, just imagine like Alexa or Siri to your health benefits plan, where you can just ask the question and get instant answer. In seconds, right? Yeah, that's [00:07:29] Alex Rector: great. Very powerful. Yeah, I think that Those the concerns you just laid out there. A lot of people are absolutely thinking about that whenever they have those issues and they have to get answers. You're right. It's very difficult to navigate and get in contact with the right person or having to deal directly with the insurance provider is always a headache. But I mean, how about for, for the employers though, right? With the working with the, I guess, are you typically talking to people in HR, like, um, in the HR leadership at businesses? Is that who you're selling it to? [00:08:05] Omer Maman: Yeah. Yeah. HR, finance leaders, um, uh, operation managers, uh, you know, each and every one of them has. Uh, a different concern when it comes to health care. So if we talk to finance leaders, they are very concerned about, you know, the rising costs of healthcare employees. If you look at the company's P and L, you'll find that health health care costs are, I think the 2nd or the 3rd most, uh, you know, the big, the 3rd biggest cost in their P and L after salaries and, uh, and other operational costs. So, um, that's a headache for them. Right? And they see that the rates are going up. You know, increasing 1 year over a year, and they're worried about that because they have nothing to do with it. Right? It's some kind of they tell me, you know what? I, I already took the assumption that this cost is going to increase year over year. I have nothing to do with it. And I just, you know, I just need to deal with it and then when I show them that by, you know, given transparency to their employees about their benefits and helping them navigate into more solutions. I would say cost effective option, for example, through telehealth, through steering them to in network solution, uh, giving them alternatives to, uh, to the, uh, current options that they have, um, helping them knowing they're deductible. Okay, helping them find the right place for them. Uh, we can save tremendous costs to to the employer. So that's on the finance leader standpoint, but let's talk about a jar, right? Uh, we are approaching. We are now the 2nd quarter of this year. Uh, the 3rd quarter of the year is all about open enrollment, you know, all over the country are worried about. Okay. How I'm going to kick off the open enrollment for next year. And that's a huge and super stressful, stressful period for HRs because they have employees coming to their office and tell them, okay, help me. Uh, I, you, you offer for me 17 or 18 or 20 types of plans. Help me choose one. I don't know how to choose. I don't understand the insurance language, right? And I hear from HR that they tell me, er, you know what, I'm, I'm an hr, I, I'm not a benefit expert. Right, right. I don't know what to recommend for, uh, uh, for them. I don't know their profile. I don't know their, you know, if they have any kind of chronic, uh, conditions that they, that need to be monitored, uh, monitored. Uh, if they have, I don't know, I don't know what's their health plan for next year? And they tell me that they end up and say you're, they say to their employees. Uh, you know what? I don't know. I don't know what to recommend you, but I can show you what I picked and you're more than welcome to follow me. And I tell them that that's the worst, you know, recommendation that they give to their employees, because when it comes to health care, it has to be super personalized and super, you know, employee focused and family focused and I'm happy that we are able to, you know, to harness technology in order to make this process much faster, more effective. And, you know, helping employees to, to be at the end of the day, healthier, [00:11:07] Alex Rector: you know, that makes sense. And, and there's got to be like a risk factor to that too, right? It's like, because the employees calling in, they're talking to the HR manager, what if they give them some kind of bad feedback or bad advice, or they don't fully understand the plan that's, you know, offering the service to the employee, then that could cause problems that could come back to the, on the company. If the, if the employee ends up with some kind of bad outcome. Yeah. [00:11:31] Omer Maman: Right. I agree. And, you know, that's something that is very unique here in the States. I, as I told you at the beginning, I, I come from Israel. Right. And the healthcare system is in Israel is completely different. You have 3 HMOs. It's something that is absolutely detached from the employer. The employer is not responsible for your health care plan or your insurance or anything like that. So you, uh, you can be a member in 1 of the 3 HMOs and that's it. Uh, you have no, you know, concerns, no questions about where to go, how to go. Everything is very, you know, socialized and that and easy and here in the States. There is a relationship of trust between the employer and the employee when it comes to health care because. I'm thinking about myself as an employee. My employer basically, uh, is responsible to 1 of the most important thing, you know, things in my life and that's my health and my, you know, um, the health of my loved ones and my, my kids and my, my, my entire family and even my pets. Uh, so, um, I think that it becomes crucial that, uh, employers. And more specifically, HRs and finance leaders will equip them with themselves with the right solutions and the right platforms to, uh, enhance the benefits experience for their employees and and reduce costs because it's a huge, huge, huge, uh, you know, cost obligation, uh, for for an employer and you want to make sure that. Uh, you take these decisions wisely. Um, there's a lot of, we see a lot of examples of employers that spend a lot of money for them being over insured and in other cases, you know, there's a lot of money or they take a big risk of being underinsured. So that's why. You know, solutions like Healthee, um, can, you know, come into this, uh, uh, space and make a complete revolution at the way that we, you know, consume healthcare, um, you know, personally, and also as a, as an employer. [00:13:52] Alex Rector: Yeah, there's definitely opportunity there. I agree with you on that. And, uh, so you guys, your clients and the, like the customers, are they, are they aware of you guys? Like, are you getting a lot of inbound already? Or are you guys having to go out and do a lot of outbound, um, boots on the ground work to, to generate demand right now? Yeah. [00:14:17] Omer Maman: So, uh, so it's climbing, right? We are relatively, uh, new in the industry. Uh, there are solutions out there that exist or they got to the market earlier than us, but they offer, I would say, a fraction of, uh, uh, our demand. Uh, complete, uh, offering. Um, so we are, yeah, we are building our brand awareness. Uh, currently, uh, we definitely see the, the demand that is growing organically and we get a lot of inbound requests and queries about what we do. How can I bring it to my. Uh, to my company, how can I leverage it? How can I enhance the experience for my employees? How can I save costs? So we get many, many questions from employers. Uh, we also see a tremendous growth in inbound leads coming from brokers. Uh, you know, the broker broker industry is very competitive. Every broker wants to be able to introduce to their clients, you know, the best technology and the best service. You know, a package, um, rather than the other brokers that are competing on the same client. So, uh, the brokers have, or they show different considerations as they want to be more competitive. They want to be able to introduce, you know, cost saving for for their employer for their clients. I'm sorry. Um, absolutely. I think that 1 of the biggest milestones that, uh, fueled the brand awareness or brought us, you know, uh, into the center of the, uh, the attention in this industry is a beautiful and super strategic partnership that we signed with try net. Uh, trying to that's huge. Yeah. 1 of the biggest appeals, uh, here in the States, uh, that embedded completely our platform into their open enrollment process. And then also, um, the benefits navigation for their members. Uh, so that was a huge, huge, huge milestone, uh, together with, uh, a round that we just closed a couple of weeks ago. Uh, so we are in a huge, we definitely see. The, the exposure, um, getting bigger and bigger as we progress. [00:16:37] Alex Rector: I wanted to ask you about that too. I know that you have, uh, uh, there's two founders, right? And, and you've, I saw one of them used to be like a jet pilot. So I'm curious about that as far as like, you know, what the regime's like over there. Um, but I mean, [00:16:55] Omer Maman: actually there are more than two founders. There are three co founders. Two of them are pilot. Okay. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, they, uh, they know each other. Uh, for many years from, uh, we, we all, obviously the, the company, uh, And it's based was founded in Israel. Um, that co founders are Israelis and we all serve in the, uh, IDF of course. Um, and yeah, our CEO is a jet pilot, a super talented guy. Um, and, um, I don't know what kind of, uh. What kind of stories are you looking for? [00:17:34] Alex Rector: I don't know, does that make it different there? Like, how does he, does he do things, um, come at it from a different angle or does this help them, like, has this helped with his, you know, fundraising or like, how does this play, how does him being a, Pilot, uh, play into, um, what he's doing here. [00:17:51] Omer Maman: He is very bold and very, uh, determined. Okay. Very task oriented, that's for sure. Uh, always, you know, aiming to the top, uh, and not, uh, even considering, uh, anything, uh, below that. And, uh, also I think that one of the most. Impressive, uh, elements that he brought to the culture of the company is the resilience that, you know, kind of, uh, integrated, uh, at each and every pilot, uh, jet pilot, uh, especially, uh, in the military. So I think that, uh, there's a huge, uh, element of resilience that is embedded in our culture, culture, income, uh, Healthee. [00:18:39] Alex Rector: I'm sure that helps a lot with a business like yours. I, are your, uh, do you report directly to. The CEO? Yeah. At this point. Okay. And, um, so like what kind of things are, are you really driving for right now? What kind of goals are you trying to work towards? [00:19:00] Omer Maman: So basically when I'm looking at my goals, so, um, you know, there are different phases in marketing, right? So if I look one year backward, I think that our marketing, you know, strategy and approach was an approach. I'm sorry. It was a very, uh, Product market fit orient, uh, we wanted to make sure that first of all, we understand the product offering and we know how to tailor it perfectly to the audiences that we are targeting. And then we, I don't want to, I want to stay humble and I wouldn't say that it was easy, but we very quickly realized that we got some, we got gold in our hands and, uh, we definitely came to the market with the right solution that nobody else has, uh, nobody else did. Um, and I think that the, the next goal or the goal that we are aiming right now is basically growth marketing. Yeah. So that's the center of our, of my intention. Uh, for the next couple of years, uh, and we definitely build a strategy, uh, for accelerating our growth, uh, in order to expand 1st of all, our footprint here in the States. And also expand our offering and learn better. About the opportunities that are ahead of us in the future, and it's a beautiful journey and we are in a great positive momentum these days and we learn a lot. Uh, each and every day [00:20:29] Alex Rector: and and do you feel that you've got like, what you need to start the scaling? Are you in? You're in growth mode, but do you have the team for growth? Do you have resource? Are you working with 3rd parties today? Like, what? What is your situation look like? [00:20:43] Omer Maman: So, so the, the shifting of the strategies, okay, from product market fit to growth. Definitely, uh, brought me to the understanding that I also need to make some adjustments in the way that the marketing team is structured. So, uh, my approach in marketing that the team should be structured. Uh, or should be aligned, uh, with, uh, with, with how the cell cycle looks like and how the fun looks like. So, basically, our team is built with growth marketing manager. That. Um, is responsible on the demand generation and make sure that the top of the funnel is, uh. Fed with a high qualified leads and high qualified opportunities. And then we have product marketing that basically is in charge to support a sales team with all the sales enablement tools that they need with competitive tactics and things like that. And basically also in charge to qualify the opportunities down in the funnel. So. Converting them from, um, early stages stages to more advanced stages, um, uh, towards, you know, the, the cell cycle. Um, and then, uh, after the cell, we have another, uh, product marketing, uh, functionality that is more oriented for the bottom of the funnel. So we want to make sure that. We don't disappear after we sell the product, right? We basically that's the beginning of the journey. And we want to make sure that the onboarding process with our customers goes flawlessly. There's a relationship and connection that we need to start creating with with the users with the end users. Right? That we meet them for the 1st time. Post sale. So we sell B2B, but actually our product, uh, work for both B2B and B2C. And then there's a lot of B2C2B marketing that needs to be created here. And we also, we built also a very, very strong, uh, content, um, capabilities, uh, in house within our marketing team. Uh, because I, my marketing approach is that, uh, content is it's. It must be in the core of the marketing. Uh, and, uh, uh, if you create good and valuable contract content, uh, the sky's the limit with, uh, how creative you can go with your, with marketing initiatives and the impact that you can create as a marketeer on the market. [00:23:09] Alex Rector: Yeah. I think that's really important for your, like, for this business, it's gotta be very important to communicate just. This bit more of the specifics of for the employers and how the employee experience is going to be. Um, but, uh, for you guys, it sounds like, uh, I mean, you're obviously you're going on a full tilt right now. You've got, you just got funded, you're growing, you're building towards something. Um, is there any, like, with the sales cycle. Like how long does that take with a customer is, is your onboarding, like a really long, painful process? Or, um, do you have like a whole service team dedicated for helping through all of that and sales engineers and all that business? [00:23:59] Omer Maman: For sure. Um, so actually you ask two different questions. You ask about the sales cycle, then you ask about the implementation and the onboarding. I'll address both of them, but about the sales cycle, it changes, right? It changes, uh, depends on the size of the company. Uh, and sometimes, and the decision makers that, you know, need to be around, you need to group them all together around the table. Sometimes there's a broker involved in the process and sometimes. We work directly with, uh, with employers, uh, if, for example, if one of the customers of one of the company came through a PEO, those companies, they have, you know, uh, the cell cycle is, uh, zero days because we just wake up in the morning and realize that Trinet had just added, uh, a few new companies, uh, into our platform. So you wake up and you find, Ooh, I have 200 new customers. And that's, uh, that's something that is super surprising that we definitely invested a lot in building the right infrastructure to support that. [00:25:02] Alex Rector: Um, so that sounds like that could be scary. That could be really scary. Right. If you didn't have all your ducks in a row. [00:25:07] Omer Maman: Yeah. Uh, so I wouldn't say that it's scary, but definitely we anticipated that. That these kind of, I would say, uh, that this partnership, uh, will have, we will have to, uh, uh, to embed a more scalable, uh, processes, uh, within our, I would say onboarding process. And that actually leads me to the onboarding question that you asked. Our onboarding is seamless and super quick. Uh, we can be ready, uh, you know, uh, live and running within 6 weeks. Uh, basically what we need is to get all the health plans, uh, from the, the employers, uh, as part of their own boarding process, then. We, what, what we do is we, we take the unstructured data, which is, you know, hundreds and hundreds of, uh, uh, PDF pages that, uh, need to be analyzed and move to the structured data. And this is where exactly the ai, you know, come in and start processing the data. Uh, it's just a matter of couple of weeks, uh, that we are ready to roll it out to the employees. Uh, all of our customers, uh, are assigned to, uh. You know, significant customer success team that will work with them from the very 1st, beginning of the onboarding through training. And we, as marketing team always support with marketing assets to the users to the at the companies to increase the engagement to drive them to take care of their health and. You know, with their wellness tips and, uh, and health, uh, tips and make sure they monitor their health process properly, um, throughout the year. So they get not only just access to the platform, but also a full package of service support and, um, marketing, uh, I would say enablement tools, uh, to make sure that they liberate the platform to the max. [00:27:09] Alex Rector: Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. I mean, six weeks is not that long for, for activation, you know, um, for a product like this, I would think that I was expecting, you know, at least a couple of months. [00:27:24] Omer Maman: Yeah, but you know what? That's exactly why, what makes us, uh, the most innovative company in this space, because the fact that we embedded top notch technology and AI helps us to, uh, to move faster. Right? Because we don't need to facilitate now a call center, right? With, uh, with 20 experts that will be available 24 7. we have 1 AI team. Uh, support, uh, digital support, uh, for all, no matter how many employees will be enrolled on our platform. And this, uh, and Zoe are a digital, uh, AI benefits expert. Uh, she doesn't take a PTO, and she can address as many employees as we can enroll on our platform. Uh, so that makes and all the, you know, the automatic processing. Thank you very much. Uh, that we're doing for the, uh, health plans, um, just allows us to be quick, uh, as, uh, as lightning and, uh, and run really, really, really fast with our customers. And that's why they are so impressed and and so, uh, grateful for us being super, um. Responsive to their questions and also, I think they appreciate that. We were, you know, from those kinds of companies that are customer centric and customer obsessed. [00:28:52] Alex Rector: Okay, yeah, I mean, that sounds. I mean, that obviously that's going to be good for, for you guys, if you're delivering like that, customers are going to be happy, they're going to spread the word that, you know, they didn't have a painful onboarding process and have to deal with a bunch of calls and back and forth. So that can only be helpful. Right. Um, and if you've got the data down, you know, you know, what kind of like templating and like how to bring it in and process it and get everything cleaned up. That's also key. Um, are you guys. Do you see a lot of objections to like the AI or like, do people like, what kind of problems come in whenever you're going through your deal stages? [00:29:35] Omer Maman: So I wouldn't say objections, but yeah, we get questions about, Ooh, so now AI, uh, that, or maybe some kind of a fear that, Oh, maybe my employees, uh, will not feel comfortable to, you know, to speak to an AI agent, right, uh, to a bot or anything like that. So we also solve that one because it's not an AI solution only. At the back office, we also have a benefits expert that can address questions that, you know, sometimes the AI bot cannot address a very specific and personal question. And this is where exactly. The question is being transferred to a human response response, uh, benefits experts that we have on board with us, uh, that they will reach back to the, to the user with the answer they are looking for. So, for the ones who are looking for the war, I would say a human connection and a human response. We also offer this service. So it's easy objections. So called to mitigate. I can tell you that. From the data that I'm looking at, uh, Healthee, uh, 92% of the questions that are being asked on our platform are addressed instantly, uh, by Zoe, by the ai, uh, um, uh, bot. And then the other 8% are transferred to our benefit specialists and that the users get their answers anyway. So we basically provide a comprehensive solution that the technology as well as the human touch. And I think they are super, you know, grateful for that. [00:31:14] Alex Rector: That's pretty amazing. The AI fields that many of the questions, [00:31:19] Omer Maman: right? [00:31:19] Alex Rector: That's surprising. So, okay. So, and, and so they're happy with that. Um, but is it, uh, like as you're going through the sales process though, Are they, you guys are able to handle all these kind of like objections that come up around the technology today. [00:31:44] Omer Maman: Yeah, um, uh, definitely. Uh, I, I told you that the cell cycle is not as complicated. I think that's the simplest cycle that I have ever, uh, handled with, uh, or managed to, uh, to handle or try to, uh, to, to, to solve. Um, but I can definitely tell you that the questions, it's not an objection, but, uh, the, uh, I think that 1 of the challenges, uh, 1 of the narrative that we are trying to, uh, to change or to customize that people don't understand that good embedding technologies into the health care and benefits world. Uh, it's not it's not a luxury. It's not a nice to have. It's a necessity. So I think that what we are. Trying to do right now is to, um, kind of, uh, center eyes, uh, or, uh, put in front the sense of urgency because there was the cost of doing nothing right? If you do nothing with your health care, then you'll pay more and more year over year. Because the rates are increasing and if you, if you're not, you know, manage it properly as an employer or also as an employee, um, you'll just pay more. Uh, so every day that you are not considering, uh, improving the health benefits experience for your employees, basically the day that you're losing money. Um, so I think that. Uh, if we clear the technology fear that, you know, it's legit that a few, uh, uh, individuals might have their out there. Uh, people need to understand that it's not a nice to have solution. It's a, it's a must have. It's a necessity and it's better sooner than later. Of course. [00:33:39] Alex Rector: Yeah, I would think that that's the main thing that that's what I was thinking. Like, the, the objection would be, this is just an add on. Is this, is this something we really need? Like, with the additional costs? Is this something we want to spend for? Right? Or do we just want to let our employees deal with? You know, the insurance themselves, [00:33:55] Omer Maman: right? So I feel that as a marketeer, I, I'm less worried about, you know, explaining the why, because that's very straightforward. You know, everyone that lives here in the States understand the need, right? Understand why this platform is a super can be super useful for them as individuals or, uh, for their employers. Um, I think that the most important thing for us as marketing team at Healthee. Is to, uh, convey the message of why now and that's that's I think the most important thing that we'll try to tackle this year. [00:34:35] Alex Rector: Okay. And I think we're getting close on time here. So, um, I guess, uh, to wrap up, is there anything like limited time promotions or something going on right now that you'd like to share? And, um, I guess, where can people go out to, to learn more and follow Healthee and be, be in the know? [00:34:54] Omer Maman: Uh, yeah. So first of all, of course, if you are an employee that are super interested, uh, in embedding technology or improving that, uh, healthcare, Uh, experience that you have, no matter if you are insured by your employer or by anybody else, uh, you are more than welcome to read more about Healthee, uh, on our website, or you can go to the HR and share with them, uh, spread the word of Healthee and tell them to reach out to us. Obviously, we're available online. Uh, on all the social media platforms, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. Uh, I'll. Send over the link so you can embed them in the in the episode. Of course. Um, and that this is it. We are, uh, excited, uh, to, uh, to spread the word of Healthee to, uh, basically, you know, change the way that people consume health care, make them best consumers and smart consumers, you know, where with Amazon. Embedded in our lives and other and Uber that, you know, all these, like, big names that change the way that we, the change the way that we consume services. Right? Uh, we feel that we change the way that, uh, Americans here in the States will consume health care. Um, and that's that's the goal for us. And. And it's happening actually, it's happening these days. This is why I'm super excited about that. [00:36:24] Alex Rector: And that's exactly what we want over here. So thank you for the work you're doing. But, um, yeah, so I guess we'll, we'll wrap Omer. Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate the conversation. It's really interesting to me. I've got a little bit of experience working in the health, uh, the health, uh, business and health tech. So, um, yeah, I mean, you guys have a great product, uh, it looks like some very good brand direction and obviously great, uh, marketing direction here with you, Omer. Uh, so, um, thanks so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed it. Happy Friday. Enjoy your weekend. [00:36:57] Omer Maman: Bye bye.
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Starting a marketing agency - serving insurance vendors with Drew Mcghee, IVM Group Founder4/2/2024 Transcript
Alex Rector: All right. I hear something. Drew McGhee: There we go. There we go. Alex Rector: Hey man. Drew McGhee: How is it going? Alex Rector: I’m in. Drew McGhee: Yeah, there it is, Google Zoom. Alex Rector: So today we’re joined with Drew McGhee. He’s the Founder of IVM Group and also experienced business development and just general business professional and marketing professional and a friend of mine that I’ve known for, I think, like amazingly six or so years now, which is incredible. I can’t believe it. Drew McGhee: Six or seven. Six or seven has flown by, flown by. Alex Rector: A lot longer than I thought whenever I look back. So, it makes me feel a little bit old but that’s OK. That’s OK. Drew McGhee: Definitely, definitely. That’s great. That’s great. Alex Rector: So how is it going, Drew? Drew McGhee: Good, good, good. It’s a beautiful day up here in Cleveland, Ohio and the weather is starting to warm up a little bit, so that’s nice. I know you’re down in Texas, so you’re … Alex Rector: I feel good now. [Crosstalk] [0:01:02] Drew McGhee: You’re just looking good. You’re just looking good. No, things are good. Q1 is wrapping up. Q2 is next week. Time is flying by, just trying to finish on a strong note. Alex Rector: It certainly feels like it has been flying by. I can’t imagine with all the things you’ve got going on, what it feels like. But I guess, you know, to get us started here, do you want to talk a little bit about kind of how you got started and where this idea came from? Drew McGhee: Yeah, absolutely So we launched IVM Group, our insurance vendor marketing group two years ago, February 2022, mainly because we have previously had experience. You as well, right? Working in the insurance space and identifying these third-party vendors that are trying to do work in the insurance space, need help with their outbound marketing, tracking their inbound marketing and also helping them manage and/or implement the CRM platform to help them most efficiently track their sales pipelines, leads, conversions, all of the above. Alex Rector: OK. I mean it seems like it’s pretty like – it’s pretty niche. You’re not serving everybody with this, right? You’re going after insurance vendors. What gave you the confidence to like jump in and start something new with like a narrow audience like this? Drew McGhee: Yeah, that’s such a great question. So, we are extremely niche-focused. So, we’re only working with companies targeting insurance carriers, third party administrators or self-insured employers and the dynamic in this niche space of the customer buying process at multiple different levels is very unique. So, us having an understanding of that and then utilizing that understanding to better connect with our partners and also be more efficient and effective, provide better outcomes with our knowledge of the space has been our greatest strength. So it was – going back to the first question, right? Seeing the need within the space, but then having the knowledge of the space and how we can quickly implement our team and make an impact from day one kind of generated that confidence a little bit, but then also working with several companies in the space before we launched IVM really, really helped us get started from day one. Alex Rector: Yeah. I mean it kind of makes sense. I remember back in the day when we worked together. It was an obvious gap that was – I mean there wasn’t love for the CRM and like doing the kind of email marketing and nurturing work. So, if that’s something that was kind of common in the space, I feel you. I think that makes total sense and then obviously your background. You know, investigations, insurance, vendors and you had to all take some connections to start with. Did that like play into it or did you have – were you able to like make some things happen right away when you got it going? Drew McGhee: Yeah. Everybody will say it, like in the space that we operate in is a very relationship-driven space. So being in the space for years prior and building the relationships that I did really played a strong factor and it still continues to this day. Two years into it, the word-of-mouth referrals we get from friends. I consider them friends that I had met in the industry four plus years ago, are incredibly valuable. So absolutely. Being in the space prior to IVM and then really establishing a strong network within the vendor space has been invaluable. Alex Rector: Do you go to like the same shows and try to see the same people like you did back in the day? Drew McGhee: Yeah, absolutely. So, like everybody we’re trying to work with is a vendor in the insurance space, so they’re exhibiting at some of these larger shows. So just last week, we were at PLRB in Boston which is a large property conference, property insurance conference and then went right from Boston to New Orleans for the Loyola DBA Conference, which is more litigation-heavy but still a great audience for us. So yes, still traveling to a lot of the same conferences I did previously which again though, it’s just another added value knowing which conferences will be most valuable for us and then passing that value along to our clients, helping them generate their conference schedule for the following year, while also leveraging our data that we’ve been collecting for them to see which shows have provided the strongest ROI and which shows they should be spending money on in the next 12 months. Alex Rector: That’s so important. So many businesses, they just go to the show just because the show, it’s in the industry. They need to have a presence there. Oh, no one is going to remember me if I don’t go to the show. Our competitors are going to get business. We’re not going to get business. But yeah, I mean like tracking and actually doing a reporting on that is super important. Like businesses spend a lot of money on those kinds of things and like it takes time and work to get there and get all your people there and so I mean that’s really important. Go ahead. Drew McGhee: I was just going to say you mentioned when we work together, one of the things that we – mainly you was implementing HubSpot and a CRM to help track a lot of this data and now we fast forward five years. Five years later and a lot of our prospects, a lot of the companies that we’re striving to work with still do not utilize a CRM or any sort of tool to track their data on their sales and marketing side. So, you’re exactly right. They hear RIMS, national rims and they think they have to go to that show just to have a presence and stay top of mind, where in reality, unless you’re trying to do work with risk managers, RIMS is 76 percent risk managers. So, if you’re trying to do work with other segments, your money is best well-spent going to other conferences that are more suited to the audience you’re targeting. I think that data was just valuable. Alex Rector: Yeah, for sure and I mean it’s like just the overall plan of going to a show, right? It’s like not only do you want to track but it’s like you got to know what you’re going to do. What are you going to do onsite? Are you just going to be there scanning badges or like taking cards in a fish bowl or let’s have some – like make sure you’re having conversations, doing something, right? Put some guidance in there. Drew McGhee: Yeah Alex Rector: But I was going to ask you too Drew. I mean like it’s one thing to talk about like you have industry experience. There’s a problem that needs to be solved. So, like you’re kind of fitting in and serving where you need to serve there. But I mean like founding a business, like what were the key things? What came together for you that really just like made it click? Like hey, I’m going to go independent here. I’m starting a business. Did some things like fall into place that had to fall into place for you or like what were those things? Drew McGhee: Yeah. So, working fulltime with an insurance vendor and seeing the impact that some of these processes that I was building out in Salesforce and their other marketing tools and then seeing the value that provided was a little bit of an eye-opener and doing the same way with companies previous to that. But then also having companies approach me that I have known for a long time saying, “Hey, can you help me implement HubSpot? Can you help train my team and using our CRM?” Having that book of business on the side on a 1099 capacity was like this could absolutely be a business. I’m not even prospecting and these companies are looking for guidance by coming to me. So, like what if we launched IVM and we started going and trying to find companies that can use this service or this value we’re providing and launch IVM? So that’s kind of what it was. It was honestly working with companies outside of the company I was working with fulltime and really opening my eyes more to the fact that the need is greater than one can initially see. So that’s really what made us take the leap. Alex Rector: For sure, yeah. That makes sense and like for like building it out, I mean I know you’ve hired some people now. Did you start out with some key people right away or some I guess like third-party helpers? How did you set up your op whenever you first launched? Was it just you at the beginning or like how long did that last? Drew McGhee: Yeah. So, we launched in February and I went to national RIMS, the first conference, two months later. Brand new company. All I have was a stack of like business cards that I had to like hurry up and get printed, right? And so, it was a little bit of a grind at first. Like any startup I imagine would be. But I think one of the most valuable things that happened to us in our first couple of months is hiring Haley Smith who’s our Director of Digital Marketing. She came onboard. She has an incredible knowledge with marketing and had an incredibly successful career up until joining IVM. She was just an incredible addition to the team in month three and that really helped. I think that was the main support for me personally, having her and just someone to bounce ideas off of and utilizing her expertise to take us to that next level was absolutely the – probably the most influential thing we did in the first four or four to six months of launching IVM and then shortly after bringing on Will Grubbs who manages a lot of our CRM development now. But yeah, we’ve done a great job of keeping everything in house. All the three people I just mentioned are in Cleveland. We’re now in a couple of different states but having that foundation and a strong team has been more important than anything. Alex Rector: Yeah, that sounds like – I mean that makes sense. So that would be like the people you would bring on first of all. We glazed over that but we didn’t even talk about like what your main service offerings are. Like what do you guys do for clients and I would love to like talk a little bit more about IVM clients, like what kind of people you’re dealing with. Drew McGhee: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think there’s like two directions we can go there, right? One is like what are we actually doing? What are the services we’re providing? And then the other direction is like specific to this space? Like what are the three pain points that we’re solving for our clients to help them not only generate repeat revenue from their current book of business but also generate new revenue from new customers or new companies? So, if we go back to the first one, what services are we providing? I think the most valuable things that we’re helping our clients with are around helping them either implement or manage their CRM and help on like the sales enablement side, helping their teams save time and help them identify the prospects for our audiences that they want to be focused on before a conference, after a conference, when they’re just trying to generate prospect. Putting the MQLs and qualified leads in front of them so that they’re not having to cold prospect or sift through tens of thousands of leads to see whether time could best well be spent. So, CRM management I think plays a large part in our value but also our outbound marketing campaigns, which have really moved the needle quite a bit for our clients not only from a lead generation standpoint but also converting opportunities and then really converting just through our outbound engagement. In this space we’ve been able to convert leads to customers strictly through our outbound engagements, which I think has been just awesome to witness first hand. So those are the top two but we also help our clients manage their websites, update their copy on their add landing pages, additional pages, for new service offerings they might be launching, managing all their social media, making sure the pulse on their social media profiles stays active, but also giving people who visit their social media a place to go, to learn more, to further them down the sales pipeline, which I think a lot of companies fall short in our space and giving that traffic somewhere to go after they look at your flashy social media post. So, I think in a nutshell, those are probably the main service offerings that we provide to our clients but then we can go into how do we tie those services or a combination thereof to solve the three main channels of revenue that we’re consistently pursuing for our clients. Alex Rector: OK. And whenever you say, whenever you talk like outbound, what are you referring to there? Drew McGhee: Email campaigns, right? So, there’s a couple of different nuances in our space that open the door for some very efficient campaigns that we can run to generate some revenue. As you know, CE, continuing education courses or webinars are a huge lead driver in our space because there’s a need for people who can refer business to attend these CE webinars. So, helping our clients promote, host, create these CE presentations and then get them in front of their customers who may have not referred business to them. They might be churned customers and/or it’s such a – again you need to space where an adjuster will pass along the webinar information to other potential requesters at the TPA they work with. So that has been one but then just getting in front of, staying in front of customers for some of our clients where the competition is very saturated in our space. So how do our clients stay top of mind with their customers? So that has been another really positive and effective outbound engagement that we manage too. Alex Rector: OK. Yeah. I mean like you’re talking to a few different kinds of like profiles for clients, right? So when you say it’s saturated and I agree. At least wherever we used to work, like investigations and like some of that. Definitely some saturation going on. There’s a lot of people, a lot of options and different types of options. Drew McGhee: I agree. Alex Rector: For you, what kind of profile are you typically working with? When you say like an insurance vendor, what vendor types are most interested in doing this kind of work? Drew McGhee: Yeah, absolutely. So, we’ve definitely honed in on like what our ideal client profile looks like and I think our sweet spot is working with like the small to medium-sized businesses in that vendor space and I can explain why. There’s this reoccurring, revolving door that happens in this space where companies are acquiring other companies and those companies are large. They’re 100 million plus in revenue and those companies continuously acquire the smaller companies that provide that same service offering or a different service offering and they have the marketing teams. They have the budget. The one thing though that we consistently see though is that those companies get so big and their service offering tends to diminish or the value of their service offering tends to diminish and that opens the door for smaller regional and/or national vendors to compete for their business. Those smaller or regional or national vendors, they do not have the capacity. They don’t have the means to manage a marketing department or manage any sort of campaigns to get in front of that potential business, whether that be around the conferences like we spoke about or running a webinar so that they can spend an hour with these prospects and explain to them the value propositions that make them a better choice than these national companies. So that’s like our sweet spot, like helping the regional and national companies compete with these larger companies in their same space. So that at a high level I think would be how we target like our best prospects. Alex Rector: Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense with size and like how that plays in and where they’re going to need that help to compete. I think that 100 percent makes sense. The people that you’re actually dealing with, with these clients, with these businesses, like who do you usually find yourself talking to? Who reaches out to you guys? Drew McGhee: So usually, I would say about 80 percent it’s the owner of the company who wants to implement some sort of outbound marketing and sales enablement with the CRM and things like that. But also I would say the other 20 percent is like the head of sales or where it’s a one-man team or a smaller sales team that just needs some support. We talked about conferences. Some of these teams we’re working with literally are going to conferences week after week for months straight. So, when you look at like how would that person have the capacity to run any sort of pre-conference outreach to these attendees that are going to the conference, to try to get in front of them, while also following up with the conference they had last week at the same time of attending the conference they’re currently at? It’s tough. So, providing teams with that kind of structure too with our support has been phenomenal to where we’re getting meetings scheduled at conferences for them, to where they’re showing up there on their calendar. They just have to look good and get in front of these prospects or opportunities that we’ve scheduled for them and keeping them on track to get the most out of those conferences rather than just churning and burning, right? Alex Rector: Yeah, for sure. I mean do you guys – like are you going to the conferences with them? Do you send somebody? Drew McGhee: No, no. So we only go to a couple of national conferences but they’re the ones sending their teams to the conferences and it’s interesting seeing the trend though of how many of our clients are exhibiting versus just attending now and I think that’s a pretty strong trend in our space. Alex Rector: Is it up? It’s up, right? Is it down? Drew McGhee: Yes. Since like the break or in-person break around COVID, it was clearly down during that time but since then, it has gone up a little bit but still people are moving away from the booth spend especially if they’re able to run a strong campaign pre-conference and get the same amount of meetings, if not more meetings scheduled without that booth presence. Alex Rector: Yeah. I think a lot of different businesses and they’re wising up for like the events. Drew McGhee: Yeah. Alex Rector: Everything is tracked more now. There’s a lot more businesses that do have CRMs in place and they are tracking like what is actually coming out of events, what the ROI is, whenever they go on and pay for a presence or try to like put a big fancy booth in place somewhere and they really want to get the most out of it. So I think businesses are getting smarter about that and trying not to double down on conferences that aren’t doing anything really for them, that anything they could tell is happening. That’s good. Drew McGhee: Great. Alex Rector: They’re not just going to go now. Drew McGhee: Absolutely. Alex Rector: Obviously we’re seeing a lot more conference activity going on since COVID has cooled off. There’s a whole lot more on-site business happening and then people just traveling more and because I’m working in study abroad now. So, people are definitely wanting to get out of the house now a lot more than they used to. Drew McGhee: I agree, I agree. I think one big transition in our space pre-COVID, a lot of these requesters or potential customers were in the office and they were working side by side. A lot of companies like that was their marketing strategy. Like that is all they did. Like office visits, dropping off donuts, sandwiches and with a stack of business cards. Then COVID, since then, offices have shut down and those adjusters are not back in the office. Those requesters are not back in the office. They’re still working from home and they’re spread out. So it’s not realistic to be able to engage with as many of those adjusters in person as it was previously. So it really has transitioned into more of a digital marketing landscape rather than hey, here’s a box of doughnuts. I can walk out of there with seven referrals. I’m having a great day, right? So we’ve really been able to bridge that gap as well, which it has been awesome. Alex Rector: Oh, man. I bet they’ve got some big projects going on with those insurance vendors to try to bridge that gap right now. Drew McGhee: Everyone is trying. Everyone is trying and it was easier, right? Again when everyone is in the office and you can get a group of them to go to lunch or you can get a group of them and go to a happy hour near their office, to get everybody together. But now you’re trying to get people to leave their homes after a day of work to go meet and potentially drive 40 minutes to get together for that and it’s not as easy as it looks. So how do you stay in touch? Alex Rector: Are the big payers, are they letting people be distributed still? What do you see out there? Drew McGhee: I don’t see a lot of in-person visits happening. You see some regional events that will be thrown from maybe a collection of vendors or maybe one vendor. But it certainly does not happen as much as it used to. Alex Rector: OK. So like a lot of them have kind of gotten used to the remote distributed. Drew McGhee: Yeah. Alex Rector: Everybody is kind of all over the place and calling in on Zoom like we’re doing right now. Drew McGhee: One hundred percent and previously adjusters had to – in some states, adjusters had to be located in that state to handle claims in that state and since COVID, like some states have done away with that to where now, adjusters are working remote in other states. So staying top of mind is super important. So how do you stay top of mind? You can’t just go to the office and see them and that’s why our knowledge of that dynamic and knowing how to target those potential requesters have been so effective and again valuable. We’re able to generate new revenue strictly through our outbound email campaigns. Alex Rector: And are you guys using the same tools to get to new clients for IVM Group or like what has worked for you guys for like your marketing? Drew McGhee: Yeah, no. So it has been kind of surreal. A lot of our newer clients have come through word of mouth and again in a relationship-driven space that’s so important. Yeah, it really has been awesome. But we do attend a handful of conferences and that has been our biggest lead driver. All these companies are in the hall. They’re at the table. So I’m literally walking up and down the aisles to meet new people, meet new companies that could potentially use us. It has been incredibly effective while also being able to see all of our current clients in some of these events. So, it’s kind of twofold on the client retention and business development standpoint. But outside of that … Alex Rector: I mean you’re the guy to send to the events. You guys don’t know Drew but Drew is like stellar when it comes to like making it happen on site for events and things like that. Drew McGhee: Yeah. You made me blush but I love them. It’s exciting. Alex Rector: I remember people just walk up to Drew. They just see him. There he is. Drew is really tall. You can’t tell on Zoom but people, they just see him and they go to him. Drew McGhee: Yeah, that helps. The height does really help. I tell people all the time I don’t know how good I would be in sales short but it definitely helps. No, it’s good. The events have been awesome for us. They really have been and just this year, as we got into this year, we decided to almost triple the number of events we’re going to this year just because it has been the best way of meeting people. Alex Rector: Yeah, that’s fantastic. I mean if it works, it works, and if you guys are getting business that way, you know. Do you find that that’s like really cost-effective for you? What do you think? Drew McGhee: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. There hasn’t been a conference we’ve went to that hasn’t produced an incredible high ROI. Alex Rector: Wow, that’s amazing. Drew McGhee: Yeah, everyone and that’s why it was like a no-brainer the beginning of this year. If the conferences are doing it for us, then let’s go to more. So that’s kind of another train of thought which … Alex Rector: I love that. I don’t hear that that often. So that’s amazing that you guys are making it happen on the conferences like that. It’s so cool. Drew McGhee: Yeah. Alex Rector: All right. So, I mean for you guys, like when it comes to your clients, you said you got a great retention rate. I mean what kind of things are they saying about you guys? What do you do best? Why are you getting that word of mouth? Drew McGhee: Yeah. One and I think most importantly for any business, we’re providing a return. We’re able to show in black and white the revenue we’re generating versus our cost and so that’s going to help regardless of our relationship. But second, I think our relationships with our clients mean the world to us and some I truly see it as friends at this point. There are clients that have been with us for over two and a half years. Literally there’s not a meeting they have where we’re not invited or they want our input because we truly are part of their team and so our relationships, I think have been great and on top of us being able to provide a positive impact on their business and then really just meeting our clients where they need to be. So I think a lot of agencies out there have an interesting scope with how they approach their clients whereas we really strive to do whatever we need to do to get our client where they want to be, where they need to be, to compete. So, if there is messaging on their website that we feel if it’s updated will help drive more conversions through that website after they’re already initially driven there through our email campaigns, that’s only going to help us become more effective and more successful and help drive that relationship with that client further. But I think those three things have really helped us generate the retention that we’ve had and also I think word-of-mouth referrals that we’ve experienced is a great representation of that. So that’s what I would attribute that to. Alex Rector: That’s great. Yeah, I mean if people are talking good about you, you’re getting good ROI, I mean that’s what people want. They want to see that business. They want to see that black and white and if you’re doing that, then you’re going to get calls. I mean hopefully you’re going to get calls. I mean unless no one is talking about you, you’re probably not – I mean you won’t get calls if no one is talking about you. But if you’re doing good for them, they’re probably going to have something to say. The thing is it’s like – I saw the other day, it’s like a – a happy customer will tell two people about their good experience but an angry customer will tell like 50 people or something like that. Drew McGhee: Yeah, for sure. Alex Rector: Not that it matters. Drew McGhee: I believe it. I believe it, right? I mean you look at reviews, right? People usually write reviews that they had a bad experience. So, yeah, and it’s such a small space, right? It’s a very small relationship niche space. So, us striving to always deliver a positive experience for our clients is huge. It’s huge because it is a very relationship-driven space and we’re talking about the national companies that buy – you know, mergers and acquisitions, buying the smaller vendors. Well, a lot of those companies lose people and then they start new companies providing the same service and their friends and co-marketing with the vendors we’re working with. So that revolving door is almost a positive. Alex Rector: I see. I mean that’s really interesting and I would love to dig more on that but I think we’re going to get close on time here. So, I was thinking if you got anything. I mean like are you guys hiring? Anything you want to put out there. Drew McGhee: Yeah. Alex Rector: And then like what’s the next for IVM Group? Drew McGhee: Oh, that’s a great question, great question. So, we’re not currently hiring. We just filled a position for our CRM developer, our second CRM developer on the team now. We also just brought on another content writer who has just been absolutely awesome to have as a part of the team. We’re not really forecasted to hire for another maybe month or two. But we will be at RIMS, national RIMS. It’s like the Super Bowl of conferences for the risk management space. So we’re there at the beginning of May. But what’s next, you know, just continuing to grow, continuing to deliver the same service that we’ve been delivering for the first two years. It has only been two years. So, while our name recognition has increased quite a bit in the first 12 months and 18 months, I think we are still coming to the scene and people are really starting to identify us and know what we do without me having to cold call them and introduce myself. So that has been great but I think what’s next, we’ve made a pretty large impact in the worker’s comp space when you’re looking at insurance and we are striving to now have more of a presence on the property and auto side of things, hence the PLRB attendance last week and that has been going really well. So, I think that’s some of our biggest goals for this year on top of everything else. Alex Rector: Do you guys have any like promotions or campaigns going on right now you want to share about? Drew McGhee: Promotions or campaigns, we’ve started really leveraging persona data for a lot of our clients with the specific personas in this space. So, we’ve had a lot of outreach based off of the data we’re able to track with those personas. Not only specific messaging to an adjuster versus a risk manager or claims manager or director of claims. All that messaging should be different when people are marketing to those different personas. So leveraging that to increase engagement but also utilizing that data for things such as like conferences, right? And who is at this conference? Not from a high level but what personas are attending each of these conferences. So, what should I be going back to that conference as it has provided a ton of impact, especially with sales teams, right? Being able to go in there, go into your CRM and pull a list of all the risk managers. Where that risk manager stands in your outreach or in that sales process is incredibly valuable. The time that saves is huge. So that’s one thing we’ve all recently been promoting as well as our outsource BDR. We’ve identified within the sales funnel. Our marketing campaigns are getting leads to qualify and then we’re getting qualified leads but with some of the sales teams we’re working with, they just don’t have the capacity to be following up with these leads who have converted. So, we’ve recently started providing an outsourced BDR that is reaching out to these M2Ls, reaching out to some of these people that are raising their hands, to move them further down that sales funnel and get them in front of some of these sales teams to help generate some additional opportunities. Alex Rector: All right. Well, you know, thanks so much for your time Drew today. Always a pleasure talking to you and we got to do this again sometime. Drew McGhee: I agree, I agree. Alex Rector: Yeah. Everyone go out, LinkedIn, connect with Drew, if you’re interested. IVM Group, check out their website and yeah, thanks so much Drew. Drew McGhee: Yeah. I appreciate it Alex. I think it’s absolutely incredible that we’ve been able to remain close after being in Texas together. Like you said, it has been seven years but it has been awesome. Thank you for the opportunity. It has been great getting on here with you. Thanks for the time. Alex Rector: All right. Take it easy, Drew. We will chat again. Drew McGhee: You too, Alex. Later. [End of transcript] Bridging the gap between B2B marketing & sales with Jason Widup, VP of Marketing at Metadata.io6/1/2022 Read the transcript
Jason Widup: Hey. Alex Rector: Hey. Thanks for joining me Jason. How are you? Jason Widup: Pretty good. How is it going? Alex Rector: It’s going good. I’m glad I got to get on with you. I think Metadata is super cool so I’m glad we could talk for a little bit. Jason Widup: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Sorry I didn’t have the Zoom on there. Alex Rector: It’s all good. I appreciate you setting up the meeting. I sent one over the last minute too. So I should have sent it earlier. Jason Widup: Yeah, no worries. Yeah. Alex Rector: I was sitting in my room looking at myself. So yeah, I mean I just wanted to set up a little interview, talk a little bit more. I’m a user of Metadata. I’m a customer. So I’ve got a little bit of experience in the platform. From you website, first B to B marketing operating system. So creatively put. I don’t know how many other businesses are claiming that right now. Jason Widup: Yeah, not very many, not yet. Yeah. Alex Rector: I don’t think so. I don’t think so. So yeah, I mean I guess to get us going, could you tell me a little bit about yourself and Metadata just from a business sense? Jason Widup: Yeah, sure. So let’s see. Where do I start? So I have been in marketing for a long time, probably about 20 years. I’ve been everywhere from a marketing analyst to marketing operations. Primarily marketing technology has been my kind of area. Led big marketing operations teams at big companies. The biggest was Tableau. I had a 70-person marketing operations team there. Alex Rector: OK. Jason Widup: And realized through – I had a goal for myself of like becoming a VP at a public company and I reached that goal and I realized, well, that’s a shitty goal. Like that’s not fun. You know, this is actually not fun at all. So … Alex Rector: Not what it was cracked up to be, huh? Jason Widup: No. Got fired from Tableau because I didn’t like politics very well and then started to kind of search for my next thing. This is like, OK, I’m ready to get out of ops and more into just leading marketing because I’ve been around it for so long and I really want to market to like myself because that would be pretty easy because I’ve been sold to and marketed to for so long. I know what I like. I know what I don’t like. Alex Rector: I was just going to ask you about that. Yeah. I was going to say you’ve lead seamlessly 70 something marketers. You’re working in marketing technology. So you know your target audience. Jason Widup: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, and so I created this job for myself actually. So I started to hear about our technology in 2019 and I dug in a little bit. I got a demo and because I was so well-versed in marketing technology, I was just immediately was like, “Oh my god. This is different. There’s no other company doing it like this in this crowded space of mar tech.” It kind of held some of the values that I have in terms of like simple attribution but only taking credit for like sourced marketing things. You know, putting the word “influence” kind of out of – you know, out of our dictionary. Alex Rector: Right. It’s always a challenge, right? Jason Widup: Yeah, and optimizing to revenue outcomes, not leads and vanity metrics. So like every part of the platform just really spoke to me and called our CEO Gil. I was like, hey, I would like to buy it and then I would like to help, you know, and I consulted for the first six months and then we got our Series A and I started fulltime day one of the pandemic, like April 1st, 2020. Ever since then, it has been basically like a – to me it feels like a dream. You know, it’s like I am responsible for 70 percent of the company’s revenue. We’ve grown over 700 percent in the last couple of years. Alex Rector: It’s amazing. Jason Widup: From a marketing standpoint, we’re building like an audience and community of people that really like what we’re doing from a marketing perspective. Putting on events and things for marketers. You know, just trying to celebrate marketers, B to B marketers that is. Yeah, and I’ve been able to do what I wanted to do, you know. Use organic social quite a bit to help drive brand. Alex Rector: Great, yeah. Jason Widup: Help build my personal brand at the same time. So like if this doesn’t work out, you know, like I’ve got the next thing ready. And yeah, just taking us from about a million to $15 million now. Alex Rector: That’s great, yeah. I mean I see the value with Metadata. Like this is – I’ve only been using it for a short time, probably like three or four months, and I’ve never used anything like it before. I will tell you that. Jason Widup: Yeah. Alex Rector: I’ve been working in mar tech and like I’ve been working for software startups for close to 10 years now. I mean, you know, in different capacities and with a few outliers there. But I mean I haven’t seen something like this before where from like an – like the way it changes, the way you do the ops side of things but also just kind of the full funnel piece of it. Looking at it from a marketing tech perspective, I haven’t seen other tech that really does that well. You know … Jason Widup: Yeah. Alex Rector: And … Jason Widup: Yeah. Alex Rector: So it has been kind of an impressive situation for me to see that. Jason Widup: Yeah, nice. Well, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, and that’s kind of – you know, that’s what I saw when I first saw the technology. I was like I don’t know anything else like this and it’s partly why we’re in this like interesting nebulous category thing where like we’re not an ABM platform but Gil put us in there before I started because he didn’t know anything different. So my first year was trying to like claw us out of this ABM category because we would compete with ABM platforms but only because we didn’t know any different, you know. We’re like – yeah. Alex Rector: Yeah, I was going to ask you about it because I mean ABM, right, ABM is hot crap right now in the B to B world for sure and I mean you look at Metadata and it seems like you would fit like an ABM – if you’re in an ABM op, right? You’re taking that strategy. Then I would think that Metadata would still be a valuable tool. But I was going to ask you, you know, what is really the driver? Where do your customers come from most of the time? Is it ABM shops? Are you looking at folks that are having issues managing their paid ads? Like what really brings them to the platform the most? Jason Widup: Yeah, I will share our page link. Our ABM isn’t a page. Yeah. We’re able to campaign on this. We gave some T-shirts away and people really like it. Yeah. It was kind of a fun little thing. We’re going to rebirth this thing I think here pretty soon. But no, like we actually complement some. So, I don’t know, maybe 25 to 30 percent of our customers also have 6Sense. But everyone knows 6Sense is a sales tool. You know, not – most people don’t even – like if you ask even like lay users of 6Sense, like is this a sales tool or a marketing tool? Like oh, it’s a sales tool. You know, it’s like – it’s almost like this runs off the tongue. So we have like maybe 30 percent of our customers also have 6Sense. You know, the ones that have bigger budgets and can afford multiple technologies in that like demand stack. We also – like you said, we can run ABM programs in Metadata. Of course you can run ABM programs without any tool. You know, it’s the proof. But the way we like to think of it is ABM is just not a technology. You know, ABM is an approach. It’s a strategy. It’s a very specific thing. In fact the term “ABM” was started in the 1990s. You know, I was around. It was when we were starting to sell like these huge technology infrastructures like Siebel and Oracle in these big enterprises and it was like Jesus Christ, like these are hugely complicated sales. Huge dollar amounts in the billions sometimes. Like AT&T Wireless spent like $2 billion in 1999. You know, to like implement Siebel. Alex Rector: Wow. Jason Widup: You know what I mean? It’s just like so, that’s where it started. This was like, well, this is a long sales – you know what I mean? And there’s like a lot of different stages and things you have to do and then, you know, demand base just glommed on to it and they did a great job in marketing. You know, and so like through just marketing, this category became a real thing and then people started associating, you know, technologies to it and then you started to hear CMOs just say, “We need to be doing account-based marketing,” you know, and they didn’t even know what it meant. But because there’s this buzzword and it sounded right and people could be like, well, of course we should be – of course we – well, we’re not marketing to accounts. No, you fucking are but like we just haven’t talked about it that way. Like … Alex Rector: It makes so much sense when you just say – just the phrase. It just sticks with everybody. I mean from executives to sales folks, to marketing folks, it’s like oh, accounts and marketing. OK. That makes sense. Jason Widup: Yeah, yeah, I can make it. I can draw a line between those two. So yeah, so anyway, you know, that’s the dilemma we’re in. We’re a demand gen platform. We’re a – in the future, we will be a marketing operating system. And what does that mean? So, you know, we’re in the middle of creating a category at the same time as just trying to grow and to help people understand, “Well, where does this fit?” You know, how do you justify? How do you pay for it? What budget category can you pay for it through now until we have that new category in your budget, you know? Alex Rector: Yeah. Jason Widup: That’s kind of how – that’s what we’re doing now. Alex Rector: So what kind of – like what is like a big win for you guys whenever you look at clients? Jason Widup: You mean like the type of company? Alex Rector: Yeah. Jason Widup: I mean I think at this point, we’re looking for customers, obviously B to B. High tech is the easiest because they understand high growth and like they need to be efficient and you’ve got to be spending at least like $50,000 a month I would say on digital because of – you know, for the experimentation part of the platform to really work. Yeah, and so it’s customers that have big growth goals, you know, and they need to – they’re not doing a lot of experimentation because they just don’t have the time. Maybe they don’t have the resources. Alex Rector: Yeah. Jason Widup: They’re optimizing the vanity metrics like leads or even MQLs and they’re just like, “Oh, why isn’t that turning into revenue?” And yeah, so it’s that kind of makeup. Usually like we haven’t gone huge with enterprise yet because we’re trying to grow fast and like enterprise deals are just slow and, you know, we only have – we’re trying to grow our sales team. It bogs them down. But this year, we’re moving – every year, we will just move a little bit more upmarket and do a little bit more enterprise and yeah, so right now it’s probably like if you’ve got between 500 and, I don’t know, 500 and 3000 employees, it seems to be like a good sweet spot. But it can also be 75 employees and just got a Series B and you’re like, “Oh god, what do I do now?” You know, and we have a lot of those as well. Alex Rector: Yeah. I see that too. I think that – I mean whenever you guys are bringing on clients, like what does that process look like? How long does it take for a client to get started with Metadata? Do you have to go through the whole like implementation and sales process with each client or is it like they come on, they get access and they just start building? Jason Widup: Yeah. I mean we – the team takes the three As approach. Let’s see if I get it right. Audiences, ads and assets basically. So we always start with audiences first. You know, just build out a bunch of audiences. We immediately try and get our customers to go outside their comfort zone because we’re experimenting, right? It's like they will tell us, oh, this is our direct ICP and it will be really, really tight. Great. Alex Rector: Tiny audience. Yeah. Jason Widup: You know, like OK, cool. That and let’s try this. Like let’s maybe go up or down seniority a little bit or let’s try this flex and this title or let’s try these new industries and we keep all those audiences separate and we don’t mix them so that our customers can tell, you know, and also so the system can optimize based on these different audience types. Alex Rector: And there’s a lot of value there. With the audience building, I see that as a really helpful tool and it’s a selling point for sure for Metadata because we’re looking at like tech platforms or social platforms like LinkedIn and they’ve got certain ways that you’re supposed to build the audience if you go in through that platform. But if you use Metadata, you can do things like apply some different filtering, exceptions, things like that, that you wouldn’t be able to do within the platform typically. So that’s really helpful when working with executives or working with other like high level marketing folks that want to have that really granular delivery and we can’t really – you can’t really do it the way you want to with just the native like audience building. Jason Widup: Yeah, exactly and I think – I don’t know what the count is. We have like 15 or more ways of starting to build an audience. You know, some of them use data from partners. Some of them use your own Salesforce data. Some of them use G2. You know what I mean? Like we have all these different ways of starting audiences and yeah, like we don’t put any cap on the number of audiences you can build because we’re like, “Why would we …?” Like you’re trying to test. Why would we limit the number? So we … Alex Rector: We’ve built a ton of them. Jason Widup: Yeah. Alex Rector: We’ve got a whole bunch of audiences we’ve been trying different … Jason Widup: Yeah. You don’t have to think about like oh, if I build this, I’m – I only have 10 left. You know, it’s like no, just as many as you can and then what you’ve probably seen too is the preview feature. It’s like oh, I built an audience. Preview it. Oh, company, title, location. These are real people. Like yeah, that looks good. Those are who I want to target. So the targeting part, the meta match, is probably the easiest to understand for marketers. You know what I mean? So it’s like super clear and it’s really helpful on Facebook of course because Facebook doesn’t have any of this. So we really unlock business targeting on Facebook and you’re not like – you know, as you know, personal interest or, you know, you’re not going to use the lame Facebook. Alex Rector: Right. Yeah, the Facebook targeting is – the native targeting is really weak and if you’re in the Business Manager – plus you just don’t even want to go in that Business Manager. It’s so dirty. Facebook, that whole thing is such a cluster. I try to avoid it at all costs but there are so many people working there every day. So anything that makes it easier to do some targeting through Facebook, it’s really valuable. Jason Widup: Yeah. What I love about it is the way we’ve set it up is it’s our own closed ecosystem, that targeting data, and the end result is just a bunch of email addresses, right? Personal email addresses of people that match these targeting criteria. What’s nice about that is it’s applicable to all these channels. So like oh, you want to unlock connected TV. Well, guess what. Connected TV uses personal email addresses to basically create the match. There are so many. TikTok, great. Be able to like – so like the foundation of the audiences piece makes it just so easy for us to like, yeah, do your business query in here. The result is just all these personal email addresses and we just send those into the – whatever platform, you know, and it creates the matches. So it has been nice. It’s nice that we built it that way, not relying on cookies or IP addresses or, you know, email addresses. Those aren’t going to go away and … Alex Rector: Yeah. Jason Widup: You know, and platforms like ad platforms will always have the ability to target based on email address, you know. So … Alex Rector: Yeah, exactly. I mean but like what really clinches the deal for you guys usually? Like are you guys – like are they looking for that full revenue view? Are they looking for – they just want the ad ops to be easier? Like what is really the linchpin here? Jason Widup: It’s the focus on the revenue outcomes, you know. It’s the like, OK, yeah, you know, I can run campaigns by myself in LinkedIn. I mean you can’t do it at the same scale but, you know, sure, you can run ads on LinkedIn. You can run ads on Facebook, you know. You can manually look at those and optimize those. You can pull reports from LinkedIn and marry them with reports in Salesforce and then hope you’ve got the connection right. But you probably don’t because it’s on UTMs, you know, and it’s not on people. Whereas Metadata is a very clear line. It’s like this person converted on this ad and they became an MQL. Then there was an opportunity created after the date that the lead came in and the lead is a primary contact or a decision maker on the opportunity and then that opportunity turned into revenue. You know, and we can see that entire thing happen because we’re attached at the email address, you know, through the whole thing and not like this fuzzy like either the UTMs make it through and like do the UTMs go to Salesforce and like – then it’s still not – at a personal level, it’s still this aggregate like averages area. So yeah, it’s really that like – a lot of our customers are like I try to build this. You know, I’ve tried to basically build this myself of like getting just this automatic connection between the ads and the revenue. Then we just say, great, we can show you that but then also just have the platform make automatic optimizations based on that. So yeah, so that’s really where it usually kind of comes to a head is like oh, you know, like the tie to revenue and I can – I really can see where my ads are going and what the return on those are and yeah, all that stuff. Alex Rector: I thought that that would probably be – the whole shift like the mindset move to really tying revenue together with the marketing. I figured that’s probably the driver for your whole solution. You know, folks are definitely looking for this right now. Jason Widup: Yeah. Alex Rector: And like you said, everyone – if you’re in digital marketing, like me, I’ve been in digital marketing or worked with AVM shops. You know that’s like a big thing. You’re trying to tie together your marketing initiatives with, you know, what’s happening in sales, where things are working together and just figuring out that whole function. You know, what is the op all the way through? Where is the impact happening? Where are things falling off? And to have just a visual funnel of that. Like you guys do on your dashboard. If that’s working properly, that is just – that’s the bomb and that’s what people want to see. Jason Widup: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex Rector: And I think that the ad deployment is a huge win too. You know, just deploying a lot of variations of ads quickly. Jason Widup: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that’s one thing we’ve – we haven’t done a great job at like highlighting that benefit. You know, we’ve been focused so much on the performance improvements. But now because it’s – sometimes it’s hard to quantify, right? For a marketer to like oh, you say you’re going to save me 10 hours a week. Really? Like where did you get that? So we’re actually doing a study with Forrester now to try and like really understand from our customer’s perspective. OK, great, the performance lifts from using the platform and getting your ads in there, great. That’s one thing. But then did we save you time? You know, and if so, how much? And then what did you do with that time? You know, that you wouldn’t have been able to do before and trying to tell both sides of the story because like honestly, if you just come to Metadata for just ad performance alone, it could be expensive. You know, you can be like, oh, Metadata is a little expensive. You know, it’s like huh and let’s just take this scenario where let’s say you’re spending $30,000 a month on ads and if our platform cost you $6000 a month, then you automatically – you know what I mean? That’s 20 percent. You know what I mean? Of your ad spend. So like the platform has to immediately provide a 20 percent lift, you know, and it’s like well, hmm, you know. So – and we have some $20,000 a month customers, you know. So it’s like OK, and they’re getting value. You know, so like OK. How do you justify it? Oh, it’s a cost savings. You know, so I’m actually able to do these other things at the same time. So that’s what we’re trying to tell that side of the story. So we’re not just like looked at as a percent of ad spend for example which some people do. Alex Rector: Well, it could enable like another marketing leader or your marketing director or someone else that’s not necessarily like an ad specialist to get in there and kind of manage ads and during the day and not be like all-encompassing work. You know, if you have to activate 20 versions of the different ads or different audiences and things like that, I mean building on the native platforms. Jason Widup: Yeah. Alex Rector: No one is going to do that. Most people aren’t going to do that unless they’re going to outsource that, you know. Jason Widup: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you’re left wondering like did the people time. You know what I mean? And then all the time we’re making mistakes, you know, because we’re humans and the copy-pasting and like the monotonous clicking through. Bound to make a mistake in there, you know, and waste some money that way too. So that’s ultimately the vision for the product and that’s why the marketing operating system as a visionary category comes to play because our ultimate goal is to just remove the tedious work from the B to B marketer, you know, and it doesn’t matter where in the funnel. But paid campaigns, when we looked at it, when Gil first built the product, he’s like that’s the place that I’m wasting most of my time. So I’m going to focus the platform there first. But later this year, we’re starting to introduce features that go beyond paid campaigns. You know, it’s like, well, what happens after a lead comes in? They don’t automatically turn into revenue, you know. There are other things that have to happen. You know, you got to maybe nurture them and yeah, there’s marketing automation. But what happens today? I just drop them in the static. You know, like the static sequence that’s timed out. I actually put them into an intelligence sequence is just for them. That’s fed with AI. You know, both the timing, the subject lines, the body copy and it’s designed to really like get to that meeting, you know. Then what happens before paid campaigns? Well, how do I figure out how much budget I’m going to spend on different things and like how do I break that out? How do I build a media plan? So maybe we will build something like that with some AI in it to help you understand where best to put your budget. So we will start to like do these concentric circles outside of paid campaigns in all directions until we’ve – and that’s that operating system concept. You know, it’s like let’s – an operating system that you and I are using right now, it’s not like I’m having to be in the background, telling you how to transmit video. You know what I mean? From like, OK, I’m on AI. Alex Rector: Exactly. Jason Widup: Yeah, transmitting video, you know. Like … Alex Rector: I get what you’re saying because like, you know, if you’re using HubSpot, you’re using some other platform like Salesforce or Marketo or something, yeah, you’ve got all these tools to do like automations and you could trigger things and you can build out logic. But you’re still in there building out that automated logic. You know, like you said, you don’t have an AI tool that’s helping you and they’re probably working on something like this too. But, you know, it’s like – it’s a powerful thing. You know, new AI tech is coming up like all over the place right now. There are so many AI startups happening out there. Jason Widup: Yeah. Alex Rector: But, yeah, I mean I can see that that could be very powerful. I’ve seen like AI for like other areas of marketing too. Like AI for content. You write your own ads for you kind of thing. Jason Widup: Yeah, yeah. We’re going to start to … Alex Rector: Yeah. Jason Widup: That’s actually coming into our platform. Alex Rector: OK. Jason Widup: Like ad copy. Yeah. So like you will write one version and then our platform will basically pop out four different versions. You know what I mean? Alex Rector: Cool. Yeah, that’s cool. That’s good stuff. Jason Widup: Yeah, and we’re not going to build that technology. We’re going to go partner with like the best one out there, you know, and that’s kind of our philosophy too is like we’re not trying to be the best at each of these things. We’re going to unify them like orchestrate it all. You know, so like I’m not going to try and build a better Outreach. Why do I do that? Everyone is going to use Outreach, you know. I’m not trying to build a better LinkedIn, you know. But I think that these things can be operated in a much more effective way together, you know, and that’s what we’re going to try and tackle. Alex Rector: OK. Yeah. That’s huge. If you had something like that where you’re like building ads and then you’re getting recommendations for ads that are actually like viable and the marketers are going to rag on that, I’m sure. But it’s … Alex Rector: That’s the other thing. It’s like marketers are so difficult. Like you marketing to marketers and dealing with marketers every day, you know. I mean how is that? What kind of objections, what kind of problems do you run into dealing with marketers? I mean they’re so flipping – they’re going to move on to their next shiny thing every few seconds. Jason Widup: Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, their – our authenticity helps us around that. You know what I mean? So like we’re very authentic in our marketing and we’re very just like hey, we’re doing the same thing you’re doing and we know it’s hard, you know, and we’re not saying we’re the best at it. So like a lot of our stuff is very much like salt of the earth people. You know, we’re very authentic. We’re the same people as you all, you know, and I think that resonates. We also try and – you know, we’re trying to be fun and entertaining and B to B marketers appreciate that. So … Alex Rector: And I see that kind of vibe. I’ve seen that ad all the time on my LinkedIn feed with the guy. Gosh, what does it say? He has got like money bags, you know, in the ad. Jason Widup: Yeah, yeah. The one the … Alex Rector: Yeah. The statement seems so absurd too like in the ad. You know, just like, yeah, sure, Mr. Money Bags. Jason Widup: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like I have some ads that – so I do an incentive for some demo ads and it’s usually just $100. I was like, hey, let’s try just the most random number you can think of. It was like $123.75. You know, like – and it gets people like, “Wait, what?” Why is that around $123.76? You know, like what? Alex Rector: It’s specific. Jason Widup: Yeah. So we’re just trying to be fun, you know. We’re trying not to take ourselves too seriously. So it’s fun on one hand because I feel like I know what marketers want to hear and see and on the other hand, it makes it more challenging because like we got to show them things they haven’t seen before to stand out, especially in mar tech. Alex Rector: Yeah, there’s so much – there’s just so much out there. Jason Widup: Yeah. Alex Rector: It seems like I’m checking out a new technology every hour almost. I get so much advertising and so many emails and LinkedIn messages about different mar tech all the time and some of it is interesting. You know, like it’s not all just stuff I’m going to ignore. Some of it, I actually go look at it and check it out. You know, I looked at this other site the other day. It’s called Aurum and they do AI call routing for sales team. Like they help you find the correct routes to reach the person through AI on the phone call, which is really cool, really cool stuff. So this is like run it by the sales and hey guys, I don’t know if you’ve seen this. But it might save you some time calling. I don’t know. Jason Widup: Exactly, yeah, yeah. Alex Rector: It’s just amazing this stuff that’s coming out. Jason Widup: It is, yeah. Yeah, I love it. Alex Rector: But you guys, you’re coming up with some really cool stuff. I guess with your platform and people, you have a lot of users now. You guys have had a lot of success. Clearly, you’re growing fast. Like what areas in the platform do you want to see people make better use of? I mean like are you tracking utilization? Do you have like product goals that you’re working on? Jason Widup: Yeah. We want it to be more self-serve. It’s one of the areas. We focus a lot on the backend technology, you know, that powers all of it versus putting a lot of effort into like the most – the easiest, cleanest user path like through … Alex Rector: Yes. And you know what? This is what – like whenever I deal with our account manager, well Kevin, you know, when I deal with Kevin, we’ve got two things we can do, right? Like we can send a spreadsheet and have your guys like do this stuff, do the lifting for us, which the spreadsheet has got a lot of stuff we got to venture too. Jason Widup: Yeah, right. Alex Rector: So it’s kind of like we’re doing the work but we’re not doing the work. It’s like we got to just like get – you want to get to the place, right, where the user experience is so intuitive that they don’t really have to like do this kind of spreadsheet back and forth business, right? Jason Widup: Exactly, yeah, and the spreadsheet specifically is one of the first things we’re replacing. You know, that’s like janky and, you know, it’s like let’s just put it in the platform and then if we put it in the platform, maybe that’s how it goes into the campaigns. You know what I mean? It’s like … Alex Rector: I look at it like it’s kind of like babysitting, all right? It’s like you’re babysitting your client to help them get the info in the right fields and really like if you go into Metadata, it’s not rocket science to get it done. But again, like if you’re dealing with some like high level marketing folks, you know, people who don’t really have time to like learn the platform or don’t want to learn how to do it, you’re going to have this issue, right? Jason Widup: Yeah, yeah. Alex Rector: It’s not going to go away easily. Jason Widup: You got it. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that’s what we’re focusing and that’s where I like to see, you know – but every single release, we’re adding more AI that takes more of the work off of people and so we will have improvements in those areas as well. But … Alex Rector: Yeah. Jason Widup: I think those are the main areas. Alex Rector: OK. Well, you know, I think we’re getting close on time Jason. I want to be respectful. I don’t know if you have a meeting … Alex Rector: Yeah, I think you’re going to get taken away. So I don’t want to end abruptly here. But I really appreciate the conversation. Where can people go to learn more about metadata? Anything else you want to drop out to the listeners right now? You know, let it roll. Jason Widup: Yeah. No. Just, yeah, check us out, Metadata.io. Yeah, just get entertained, get educated. We do focus a lot on just general B to B marketing education. You know, platform agnostics. So check out our resources area. We do podcasts. We do guides like – and it’s all ungated. So have at it. Alex Rector: Awesome. All right. Well, thanks so much Jason. Jason Widup: Awesome. Thanks Alex. Read the transcript Alex Rector: All right. So recently guys, I shared a post about marketing through voicemail and some different cases where it might be a good thing to drop a bulk voicemail. I thought it would be an interesting topic because a lot of people have strong opinions about voicemail in general. In my career, I’ve worked with two camps, you know, people who think it might be worthwhile to spend and try out voicemail drops and then folks that think voicemail is just out of the question and they would never stoop so low as to drop voicemails in people’s mailbox. So I’m curious to explore what other businesses and marketers were doing. Today I’m joined by someone who’s an authority on the subject, the President of MobileSphere, Mr. Toufic Mobarak and please correct me if I completely butchered your name Toufic. Toufic Mobarak: Close enough, close enough. Alex Rector: Close enough. OK, great. Toufic, thanks for hopping on today. To get started, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your business. MobileSphere does ringless voicemail but that’s not the only communication service in your lineup. Toufic Mobarak: No. Actually they are the inventor, the patent holder of ringless voicemail. We started this back in, yes, 2010, 2008, 2009, around that and we got the patent I would say 2014, a few years later and so the first app, we did the ringless voicemail, was an app called SlyDial. It was extremely popular, front page on the New York Times articles. It hit it very hard but then once we get that, we said, well maybe we need to do it as more a business tool versus just a consumer product. Then this was when we launched SlyBroadcast which is kind of a service – a software base, web base and an app base targeted for businesses to be able to send voicemails to a larger audience. The advantage of voicemail is it’s personal. People’s voice is a signature. It’s very personal versus a text. You can pretend it’s you but it’s a text. Your text will sound and look exactly like mine. There is no difference. Alex Rector: Right. Toufic Mobarak: So that’s – what is my voice and your voice are very different, very unique. Alex Rector: I got you. So everyone understands SlyDial – now what’s the difference between SlyDial and SlyBroadcast? Toufic Mobarak: OK. SlyDial is an app, a smartphone app and it’s for one-on-one communication, right? So let’s say I want to leave you a voicemail. I want to call you and leave you a voicemail. I don’t want talk to you. Just I want to leave you a voicemail. I would use SlyDial one on one. That’s on the phone. It’s integrated with the contacts. You just – SlyBroadcast is a web tool where you can record the message and upload lists and it gives you reporting in addition, et cetera, et cetera. So it’s one to many versus one on one plus significantly more advanced features as well as reporting. So you get how many people delivered, what the cause of the failure, et cetera, et cetera. Alex Rector: Got it, yeah. And, you know, I’m familiar with SlyBroadcast as a marketer and my background. Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. Alex Rector: We’ve talked about using SlyBroadcast in our campaigns, ahead of events. There’s all sorts of use cases we’ve considered SlyBroadcast. Now whenever you look at your lineup, what is your – kind of your bestselling different services that you offer? Toufic Mobarak: So – and then let me finish with the – and then we have a texting platform called SlyText which we launched maybe four years ago, five years ago and it’s a two-way communication and you can send videos, you can send text. In addition, we SMS-enable your business VoIP or landline. So now the text messages can come from your landline or so people are familiar with it. Let’s say you are a real estate agent or you are a small business shop or you are – you have a law office. You have your landline and then now the text messages can come from your landline versus some random number. And it’s – all our services are voice-enabled. So if somebody wants to call you back, they can call you back. Alex Rector: OK, yeah. That’s great. Toufic Mobarak: You see, so it’s not like – or they can text you back. So it’s more communication, two-way communication. So the lineup and then we have – we just launched a couple of other products for overseas market which integrates with WhatsApp but it’s for mostly Europe and Asia. So I will not address those here. I mean they’re all – you know, each product has a fit in our product line. Like SlyDial, it’s an extremely popular app. It’s free with ads and what we use Sly Dial, we advertise our other services. Alex Rector: OK. Toufic Mobarak: So for us, it’s a lot of – a lot of our customers come from using SlyDial. It’s free. I mean you have a premium version if you don’t want to get the ads. But most of our customers use this for free and it’s kind of a marketing vehicle for us for the other products we have. Then we see a lot of use cases where people want the voicemail and texting, right? So for some instances, voicemail makes sense. It’s more personal. You know, more the human element that’s much, much more important whereas text, it’s more informational, right? So let’s say – again we go back to real estate or real estate agents can send you voicemail and then send you a text. Hey, the house opening, it’s 125. So in cases where the information is important, you know, whether I’m giving you an address, I’m giving you a date, I’m giving you a phone number. Texting is a better vehicle. The other one where it’s more the emotional aspect and the storytelling aspect if you will of the – then voicemail is significantly more important because it’s you. It’s your voice. Your voice is you. It’s your signature. Alex Rector: Yeah, and I think that’s definitely the biggest selling point for using something like SlyBroadcast. You can state what you’re trying to state away that you want to say it and really if – there’s some kind of complex idea you’re trying to communicate or there’s some – there’s a certain way it needs to be delivered, then using your voice is clearly a great way to do that. Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. Alex Rector: Are you typically – like whenever you’re working with businesses, who are you usually talking to? Is it usually marketing folks or are you looking for service folks? Toufic Mobarak: It depends because – it depends on the nature of the business, right? So our product is used – marketing obviously but not only marketing. Notification. In the healthcare, we use it because it’s HIPAA-compliant. Text is not HIPAA-compliant. People use it in political campaigns. So it depends which organization and the type of – what – the type of use case they’re going to do. It depends. It can be marketing. It could be people responsible for logistics. It could be people responsible for internal human resources. A lot of companies use us internally to communicate. So again it all depends on what the use case are. So marketing is one of them, an important one. I’m not underestimating that. But it’s not the only one. Alex Rector: Right, that makes sense. Those are some great examples too. Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. And the way we can – you know, and any communication we have, there is always – kind of communication have different – so you have different components if you will. You have the emotional component, right? You know, humans who are not just communicating information. It’s the storytelling, the emotional component of communication is critical. Then you have the pure informational component if you will. Let’s say I’m telling you meet me at 12:30 at 25 Main Street. There’s no emotion in it, right? Or I can tell you, hey, meet me up, you know, and then even if the same component, the same informational component in it, the emotional component can be very, very different and for humans, emotional is much, much more emotional than anything else. So text messaging is great for just if I want to communicate with the information. Emojis can add some emotional contact to it but voice is definitely – in addition to having the content of the information, the emotional component is so much more enhanced. Alex Rector: That’s great, yeah. Toufic Mobarak: So it’s, you know … Alex Rector: Super important. I think that people won’t remember what you said or who you are but they will remember how you made them feel, right? Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. Alex Rector: So … Toufic Mobarak: Oh, yeah. Alex Rector: Depending on how you deliver the message. That could be very important and that’s a big reason to tap into and potentially consider voicemail or a kind of recording of a message as a vehicle for communication. But whenever I bring up like SlyBroadcast or I’m trying to pitch this as part of something that we might use in a marketing campaign, working with the executives, working with other decision-makers. I get a lot of objections and I’m just curious. You know, how do you overcome some of the stigma around voicemail that you …? Toufic Mobarak: What kind of objections do you get? Alex Rector: So I run into people that are – you know, they’re worried that voicemail might hurt their reputation, if we did a voicemail drop and they just have a negative … Toufic Mobarak: Versus what? Alex Rector: Versus just doing something like email or doing like a mobile text messaging. They just have a negative connotation about voicemail. I’m just curious what you see out there. Toufic Mobarak: Everything, we are comparing A to A, right? B to B or orange to apples. So if you are comparing a text message to a voicemail, voicemail is a lot less intrusive. It’s more personal. You know, where you get a notification and you jump and it’s oh, you know, and the other thing is not – and we would like to keep it this way. It’s not as used, right? I mean it might be counterintuitive for our business interest, right? To say, you know, what I tell my customer, less is more. With us, less is more. So it’s not – don’t send them 500 voicemails every day. No. Send them once. Even though it’s against our pure financial, selfish financial interest. But for the long term, we believe that’s a sustainable way is less is more. Versus texting, you know, you get a text. I don’t know if it’s more annoying or less annoying but definitely annoying versus there’s a voicemail. You can listen to it at your own leisure and as I said, the emotional content is there. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it. This way, don’t answer. If the content is relevant to you, you can always call this person back. But it’s definitely the – it’s not intrusive. Non-intrusive versus a call which you have to call and you say, “Oh no, sorry. You know, I’m not interested,” and to relay the information, you relay what they’re talking to you about. It's not heavily used like the email. I mean how many emails you get a day honestly? It’s like 90 percent goes – 99 percent probably go to delete. So there, listen to it and again I repeat. With us is less is more and the value of the voicemail is that it’s there when you need it and it’s not – you don’t have to listen to 500. Usually it’s two or three days, this is what you get and that’s it. I would like to keep it this way. Alex Rector: Yeah, and I think that’s really the power of the voicemail these days. Whenever I look into it, voicemail doesn’t happen as much as it used to. People are not leaving messages all the time whenever they go to voicemail anymore. So … Toufic Mobarak: That’s correct. Alex Rector: And people aren’t getting a lot of voicemails in general. So whenever people get voicemails – I know I listen to all my voicemails. Toufic Mobarak: Oh, you – absolutely and this is what – the biggest objection we got is not what you mentioned the biggest objection. But nobody – I don’t leave voicemail. That’s exactly the point. When you get a voice maybe sent, it must be very important. Somebody left me a voicemail, you know. So yes, out of – look at it from your personal view, that you are calling somebody, a friend, and he or she doesn’t answer. No big deal. But if you have something important and he or she doesn’t answer, you leave a voicemail. When you do, you know, they’re going to listen to it because scarcity equals value. Scarcity equals importance. Alex Rector: And that’s how I look at this too. That’s really what my argument is whenever I’m talking about using voicemail. I think that there’s one other issue that comes up that I had a question about and that’s the challenge of kind of like the ambiguity or not knowing where a phone number is going to go. Like if they have – like if I’m working marketing, right, and I’ve got a database of contacts and we split them up into different groups that we want to reach through different channels. Well, how can I guarantee that I’m going to deliver these voicemails to these people? Is there a way that I can – like a method for me to figure out? Like if the voicemail is going to go where it needs to go, if I do like a bulk send? Toufic Mobarak: Oh, well, it goes where the phone number is. I mean that’s – if your phone number is not accurate, there’s nothing we can do about it, right? But the phone – and then we – the report will tell you if it was delivered or if it was not delivered. Alex Rector: OK, yeah. Toufic Mobarak: So if it’s delivered, that means it’s 100 percent delivered. It’s not like oh, yeah, no. With us, it’s 100 – if we tell you it’s delivered, you can take it to the bank. It’s delivered. If it’s not delivered, we give you the reason why, whether the phone is disconnected or it’s full, the voicemail is full, the voicemail is not set up, et cetera. Like three or four cases where the voicemail cannot be delivered but the reporting will tell you. Let’s say you have 100 numbers. You send 100 voicemails. Let’s say 90 got delivered. These are 90. You know they are delivered and the 10 that didn’t get delivered, then you know they didn’t get delivered for whatever reason. If the voicemail is full in that setup, then you know you have to use another alternative or if the phone is bad, then you know hey, this is a bad number. Remove it from the list. So we allow you also – you know, it’s kind of use it as a clean-up tool. This is not what we market it as but it’s a side benefit, right? You know, hey, if the phone number is disconnected, remove it. That’s the person no longer has this number. So that’s an additional value provided in the reporting. But again, the reporting tells you the story. Alex Rector: Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. We would definitely use that to help clean up the database as well. At least we would do some due diligence to figure out the numbers are right, right? Toufic Mobarak: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex Rector: But yeah, I mean I think that’s probably the other thing that comes up the most whenever I start talking about SlyBroadcast with other marketers and folks that are involved in the decision-making process on that. They just don’t have confidence in their own database with the mobile numbers, right? Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. Alex Rector: So there needs to be some cleanup done ahead of time usually or some kind of ops work. It has to go into it before we would actually even try it, right? Toufic Mobarak: Yes, absolutely. As I say, all attitude – garbage in, garbage out if you have – you know, so I mean … Alex Rector: That’s so true. Toufic Mobarak: You know, so you have to – the starting point has to be good. Alex Rector: And so thinking about marketing and sales, what are some different and like interesting ways that you’ve seen your products used or integrated into like campaigns or sales processes? Does anything come to mind, that sticks out? Toufic Mobarak: I keep saying it. I keep coming back to the same thing, personal. It’s a personal message. This is not the radio ad. This is not the Facebook ad. This is a personal message. So you are reaching and today, the world we live in, the personal contact is huge. It’s missing. It’s missing in all the – like all the promotional campaigns. You mentioned whether it’s email, whether it’s text message, whether it’s social media, Facebook, Instagram or TikTok, whatever social media. The personal aspect, the personal connection is missing and I think this is – if you tell me what is the single most important element to our success is that as well we provide the personal connection to your customer and there is nothing more powerful – for me, there is nothing more powerful than this. Everything else is – yeah. Everything else is qualifications, modifications, but the single most important element is we provide a tool to be personal with your customers and I don’t think of any other tool that allows you to do this. Alex Rector: Yeah, and I think – yeah, when I thought about using like SlyBroadcast, some different like options where we could integrate it, where – you know, like something like ahead of an event where we’re having like an exclusive event, you know, high-level decision makers. We need to have onsite somewhere and we want to deliver like a really kind of – a more personal invitation. So like record the message from the CEO of the company. You know, then he could really put the – communicate it in the best way possible as a personal invitation to the folks receiving the message. I think we – like the challenge is like you can’t really personalize it through this specific person so much if we’re doing like a broadcast, right? Toufic Mobarak: But it’s personal. Alex Rector: But yeah, I think there are ways to make it sound like it’s more like a personal message, right? We just left it for them. Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. Alex Rector: So I mean that’s the way that – that’s one example that I’ve had discussions about in the past. Toufic Mobarak: My favorite example of a use for our technology, we had – we donate our service to Make-A-Wish Foundation, to all their chapters. Make-A-Wish Foundation functions – it’s a national organization that is divided in chapters and the chapters act fairly independently. So we had – and we give it – you know, I don’t know how many we have. We have maybe 30 chapters right now using us and they were doing a fundraising, the chapter in Arizona, Phoenix. They were doing a fundraising and to have the children record a message, to have a group of children, five – I don’t know, a small group of children and … Alex Rector: Wow. Toufic Mobarak: Yes, and then they had – the message is sent to the donors, thanking them and inviting them for their annual event that was taking place. And the chairman of the organization for Make-A-Wish of the chapter in Phoenix got the message and he was giving his speech on this and he played the message that he had received from this child and everybody was in tears. So go back – you know, everything is personal, is emotional, is – all this is kind of – all what we have been talking about comes – it’s all reflective in this message that these kids have sent to their donors because it addresses the emotional, it addresses the personal, the personal connection, et cetera. The other one that was very popular is Ryan Reynolds. You know, the movie star. Alex Rector: Yeah, of course. Toufic Mobarak: OK. Ryan Reynolds owned a mobile company called Mint Mobile. Alex Rector: OK, yeah, yeah. Toufic Mobarak: OK. Mint Mobile did a campaign with us when COVID started and they – Ryan Reynolds sent a voicemail to all his customers saying that we are going to give you a free – it was a free month for data or something for COVID, right? I don’t recall what the offer was, but this was free data. I don’t know if it was free in gig or free month. I don’t recall the details but it was a bunch of free data they were offering to their customers and you should see the reaction on social media. You know, oh my god, Ryan Reynolds had left me a voicemail. Oh, yes for this. I’m going to – you know. Alex Rector: That’s so great, yeah. Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. Alex Rector: I love that. Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. So all this – again, all this personal connection that voice creates, it’s unmatchable, unmatchable. Alex Rector: Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting use case. Both of those are great. I think you got the emotional element. You’ve heard it with the children. That’s very powerful. Awesome idea, you know. Whoever came up with that, that is so great. Ryan Reynolds. I mean if you could get an influencer, someone huge and famous like Ryan Reynolds to do something like this and do a bulk send, you know, for a marketing offer, I think that is a great idea. I love that. Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. Alex Rector: I didn’t think … Toufic Mobarak: Cool. You should too. Cool, cool reaction. You should see Ryan – do a Google. Ryan Reynolds voicemail, right? And the reaction on Twitter, on all – it was hilarious. I mean a huge success for them. It was not – because they gained two things. One is the voicemail they delivered and the other thing is the reaction, the expanded media they get on the – and social media. It’s huge. Yeah. Alex Rector: I mean that’s great and you know, you compare that with some of the other things out there too. It’s like you got – like Cameo is doing this now. Like they’ve got the cameo, little celebrity cameos. You can hire them through the online and have them come on. I’ve seen a few folks using that for marketing now too. I think it’s something like that paired with a voicemail from the same actor. That could be a really powerful marketing … Toufic Mobarak: Yeah, absolutely. Alex Rector: … option there. Toufic Mobarak: Absolutely. Alex Rector: But that’s just really cool. Yeah, and it would definitely start a social firestorm, right? If you just nailed it just right. Toufic Mobarak: Oh, yeah. Alex Rector: So it’s really … Toufic Mobarak: And it happened during COVID. So everybody had nothing to do but to be on social media. So they got the double whammy here. Alex Rector: That’s so good. So clever. Just good, you know. So I also wanted to talk to you about like the technology side with the products that you have on your line-up. As a – working in marketing, a lot of times I work on the ops side, dealing with the tech stack and that kind of thing. The questions coming to my mind is like how can we really best leverage this and I’m curious. As far as like integrations go and working with other – like CRM systems and things like that. How does that work with your products? Toufic Mobarak: We integrate with a bunch of them. HubSpot, Salesforce. Alex Rector: Right. Toufic Mobarak: I mean I don’t know. Maybe 10. Alex Rector: OK. Toufic Mobarak: Ten or fifteen. We love integration. We love – we are honestly – if you ask to define MobileSphere, we’re a bunch of geeks. You know, we’re a software company. We’re a bunch of geeks working here and doing products that hopefully people like and found useful and beneficial for their business, personal, whatever they want to communicate, right? So integration for us is important. So any company that comes to us, we do the lifting, the heavy lifting. We will integrate with anybody. So then we have done quite a bit and we will continue to do those. So that’s a critical part of our – strategically important, strategically. We don’t have ego. We don’t want them to come to our product. As long as they use it through other channels, it’s music to our ears. Alex Rector: OK, yeah, yeah. I mean that’s great. You hit the nail too from right there. You know, HubSpot and Salesforce are huge. Definitely going to be questions about that if we start bringing this up and like so if you were working with HubSpot or Salesforce in the integration, how does that like – what do you see with – if we were to do like SlyBroadcast? Is there just like an update on the contact timeline or …? Toufic Mobarak: You know what? They integrate them with their campaigns. So we are just another way in their campaign flow. They just send a voicemail and we integrate with them. Alex Rector: Oh, wow. OK. Yeah, that’s even better. That’s great. Toufic Mobarak: Yeah, yeah. Alex Rector: That’s really great. Toufic Mobarak: Again, yeah, it’s part of the campaign flow. They can send … [Crosstalk] [0:27:04] Alex Rector: They sent like a nurturing flow and put it together. They can have your – like a voicemail drop as part of that. Toufic Mobarak: Got you. Yeah, yes, exactly. Alex Rector: That’s really cool, that’s really cool. Toufic Mobarak: That’s exactly right. Alex Rector: Yeah. I think that – you know, I think if more marketers knew about that, they would love to know that they could do that, you know. Toufic Mobarak: Yes, yeah. We try to tell them. We try to tell them. It’s on our website. So … Alex Rector: Yeah. Having like a variety with the marketing … Toufic Mobarak: And then the other thing we agree with, we integrate with is Zapier. I don’t know if you are familiar with Zapier. Alex Rector: Yeah. Toufic Mobarak: So Zapier we have integrated with them. I don’t know a couple of years ago. So any tool that integrates with Zapier actually integrates with us. So that kind of – that’s kind of – your door just opened. It just kind of eliminated the … Alex Rector: Sometimes my critters can open my door. So you get some intruders every once in a while, so sorry about that. Toufic Mobarak: No problem. No worries and then the – like it integrates with everybody that integrates with Zapier. We have another couple of companies similar to Zapier that are on the website. But Zapier is by far the largest one. Intechra [0:28:13] [Phonetic] I think is another one that we integrate with. A similar tool like Zapier but Zapier – again, as I said, it’s so – so we don’t know how many companies. I can tell you how many we have done but that many other companies that have integrated or users have integrated through us, through Zapier because they use tool A that integrates with Zapier and we integrate Zapier and the user. So that has been a great, great solution for us. Alex Rector: Zapier is probably the most well-known and in my experience, widely used like middleware. Toufic Mobarak: Yeah. Alex Rector: Software. So I’m totally – I would be excited to know that you can integrate with Zapier. I think that there’s a ton of different things you can do if you can integrate through Zapier. So … Toufic Mobarak: Yes. Alex Rector: … that will help with overall dealing with the different tech stack challenges and that’s great, you know. I would love to hear that you guys are working on integration. You’ve got different things. So I think we’re kind of getting close on time here. So I wanted to ask you before we wrap up here. Like is there anything we should be looking forward to with your products upcoming this year? Are there any bigger leases on the roadmap? Is there anything else you would want to share? Toufic Mobarak: Well, I’m not going to release too much but for us, tracking is the next, tracking. Alex Rector: OK. Toufic Mobarak: I think a layer of tracking. That’s what we’re working on. Alex Rector: OK. Yeah, that’s always great. Have a little tracking going on. I think that’s good. If you are – with our viewers, is there – do you have any like ongoing promotions? Where should they go to learn more or …? Toufic Mobarak: SlyBroadcast.com for the broadcasting site. SlyText.com for texting. Alex Rector: OK. All right. You guys heard it. Is there anything else you would like to add Toufic? Toufic Mobarak: No, thank you for your time. Alex Rector: Thank you so much for joining us today and best wishes to MobileSphere and SlyBroadcast. We will tap in and hopefully this has been helpful for everybody. Toufic Mobarak: OK. Thank you Alex. Alex Rector: Thanks. Toufic Mobarak: Bye-bye. Alex Rector: Bye-bye. [End of transcript] |
Wicked PitchAlex is the founder of Wicked Pitch, a career marketer, and podcast host based in Fort Worth, Texas. ArchivesCategories |